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God The Conversation
Have you ever heard or read something written that captures your experience perfectly and when your done you wish you would have said it? Leonard Sweets book The Gospel According to Starbucks was that for me in spades particularly under the section Relational Codes of Conduct page 154 he says,
“One of the original meanings of the Latin work conversari, from which we get our word conversation, was ‘to live together…’ What codes do you live by so that we all can live together?
Technology reduces everything to binary codes of zero and one.
Politics reduces everything to legal codes of legislation.
Religions reduce everything to moral codes of principles.
Jesus reduced everything to a one-word relational code: love.”
Think about the implications of what Dr. Sweet is saying. To live together is to be in conversation with one another, but in a particular way. Loving my neighbor as myself takes on new meaning in light of this. To love my neighbor, (to live together the way I would want my neighbor to live with me) would then be to converse with my neighbor as I would want my neighbor to converse with me.
Jesus commands us to love one another even as he has loved us. If we hear this in the context of conversation what could it mean? Can we even imagine? I know for me, the implications are mind boggling, especially when I take into account the meaning of neighbor, “the one closest to me in the geographical sense not the preferential sense.” What does this mean with regard to my enemy (the one who seeks to destroy me), the homosexual, an ex-spouse, the Mormon, the Jew, the Scientologist, etc.
In my research for a book that will soon be published I found this translation of John 1:1-14 by Professor Clive Scott of Erasmus’ translation of “logos” as “conversation” (Erasmus was the theologian who translated much of the New Testament for the first Bible published) that sheds light into the depth, power, possibility and responsibility that comes with the gift of conversation.
“It all arose out of a Conversation, a Conversation within God. In fact, the Conversation was God.
So, God started the discussion and everything came out of this and nothing happened without consultation. This was the life, the life that was the light of men shining in the darkness,
a darkness which neither understood nor quenched its creativity.John, a man sent by God, came to remind people about the nature of the light so that they would observe. He was not the subject under discussion but the bearer of an invitation to join in.
The subject of the Conversation, the original light, came into the world, the world that had arisen out of his willingness to converse. He fleshed out the words but the world did not understand. He came to those who knew the language, but they did not respond.
Those who did became a new creation (his children); they read the signs and responded. These children were born out of sharing in the creative activity of God. They heard the Conversation still going on, here, now, and took part, discovering a new way of being people.
To be invited to share in a Conversation about the nature of life, was for them, a glorious opportunity not to be missed.”
It occurs to me that:
- Conversation is deeply connected to God’s nature and ours: “It all arose out of a Conversation, a Conversation within God. In fact, the Conversation was God.”
- Conversation is the key to personal and social transformation: “They heard the Conversation still going on, here, now, and took part, discovering a new way of being people.”
- A particular type of conversation, consultation, is light that reveals: “God started the discussion and everything came out of this and nothing happened without consultation. This was the life, the life that was the light of men shining in the darkness”
- “Word” as “Conversation” is quite a move away from the idea of One who speaks a WORD and it all happens. And so, if it is consultation or collaboration through conversation, which is the life, then it is that nature of life which is revealed and in which we can share. What are the implications for the whole Gospel story? What would open up if the whole Gospel were translated from this perspective?
- Unlike a proclamation you can join a conversation. The good news of the Gospel is that God is an invitation to join in: “John, a man sent by God, came to remind people about the nature of the light so that they would observe. He was not the subject under discussion but the bearer of an invitation to join in.”
I am captured by the possibilities in the areas of community, evangelism, preaching and public discourse.
I am curious as to what occurs for you?
What comes up for me, is between whom is this original, and this present conversation taking place? The ineffable God consulted himself in the original creating, but is that consultation to create the future open to us? Are we “in it” with him shaping tomorrow? Co-creating, as it were? If so, how is he omniscient? How does this impact the concept of prayer? I wonder how this idea of conversing, consulting, collaborating with God would impact the concept and practice of prayer.
I wonder too…
My initial thought about your question is in light of the Trinitarian conception of God that the three would be in dialog and inviting man into the conversation, thus making man a co-creator or partner with God. Now that is a thought.
As far as your question about Omniscient, I don’t really know. Maybe you could comment further on that. I don’t see the relationship you are addressing. Are you saying you can’t see how God could be omniscient with us as co-creators?
I really believe this perspective would revolutionize the whole conception of prayer. Or it has in my life. Conversation of any sort then becomes a form a prayer. Ouch! Because I am often thoughtless about how I am in conversation or relationship with people! I guess the conversation is the relationship.
It would also open the idea that reality is dynamic and not as static as I may like it to be. I am thinking of Jesus walking with the fringe elements and being seen as a hypocrite from the perspective of the religious establishment whose concepts of others was so tightly tied to law, sin management and thus self-justification. So, being transformed in Christ really would have to do with the type or nature of conversation I am with Jesus and others.
In giving a response to your post it has caused me to wonder, “what if a conversation with Jesus and or answering an invitation to be in conversation with Him or any of his true disciples is an invitation to the kingdom? That being in a particular type of conversation with Him and His disciples literally transforms anyone who enters the conversation. When I say transforms I mean, they begin to take on the character of Jesus, the fruit of the spirit if you will or they reveal who and what is really guiding their participation in life. Could how we converse bring light to who we are for God and each other?
Yes, I am wondering how an omniscient (all-knowing?) architect could “give power” away such that he isn’t in absolute control, nor cognizant of the outcome.
Regarding your question about a kind of conversation with Jesus or his disciples as a trans-formative invitation into the kingdom; all sounds well and good. I guess we could tell by the fruit it bears. I’m finding that this (type of) dialogue is causing me to love people for who they are not what they represent. Or at least it feels that way. It all sounds great until I look for scripture to support it. What distinguishes this as a qualified hermaneutic in interpreting holy writ?
Which brings to mind another worm hole; is the scripture to be interpreted through philosophy I accept as rational and compelling, or something else? The traditional approach (coming to the text “unbiased”) is a farce, I know, but is coming to it to buttress a variant view, such as the above, any different than common orthodoxy or modern dogma’s (mis)use of scripture? Won’t we do just about anything to make ourselves feel right and look good? Could this the god we really serve?
Hi Mike, thanks for your passionate response. There is a lot in what you are asking and I appreciate your willingness to engage! The purpose of my post is to wonder and question what I usually take for granted as true and see what opens up. In this particular case the translation of the word “Word” in the John 1 as “Conversation” is very interesting. Your questions are evidence of the power of just wondering.
In wondering about “how” an omniscient God could give power away, it seems to me that he did because it is said in the scripture that we are free in deed. So he obviously he gave us the power to choose freely. And it would therefore seem that our choices impact the outcome of our lives. As far as that taking from his absolute control and cognizance of outcomes goes, I am not sure it does. Perhaps it changes the way we think about it. My question is can we ever know that for sure? And how is having to know something like that important for how we live our lives, relationships with others and God? What does it mean to you?
Your second question about “what distinguishes this as a qualified hermeneutic in interpreting holy writ?” assumes I am saying it is qualified. My question is who decides what is and isn’t qualified as a hermeneutic and for whom? There are 20,000 denominations in the U.S today with many differing standards and qualifications for interpreting scripture, which one do you recognize as the qualified source? I guess that would depend on who you endorse as an authority. For me it is qualified enough to wonder about what would open up in my life and relationships with God and others through this perspective of reading scripture because Erasmus was enough of a scholar that I am willing to consider these implications. And beyond that I figure God can handle me using my imagination about what he is saying to us regardless of man’s qualifications or not.
And finally on your last point, I would agree with you that we humans will do whatever we can to be right and look good and that I would imagine that these themes are alive and well in all exegetics traditionally accepted or not. Therefore it would be worth keeping that in mind as we wonder what opens up and what closes down from the perspective of “word” as “conversation” and visa versa.
I didn’t realize I was “interpreting scripture through philosophy,” I will give that some consideration since I tend to be quite philosophically oriented. It immediately seems to me that some of the greatest philosophy ever written comes from the scripture – for instance the book of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. Jesus himself is quite philosophical in addressing those who engage him in conversation. Consider his conversations with the Pharisees, the Roman Soldier and his apostles. I am sure you know that Philosophy is the study of wisdom and the Bible is a great book of wisdom among other major themes and to me Jesus is not only savior and Lord, but the wisest man who has ever walked the earth.
You comments have provoked me to think in ways I had not considered before this. Thank you and I look forward to hearing more about what opens up for you.
Recently I was told that the book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible.
If that is so, I’m going to assume that the information therein is what God wanted to get out there first to mankind. Right or wrong? Help me out.
Anyways, newsflash from God, at his first attempt with the written page, and how does it start out, with God and Satan having a conversation. Hmmmmmm
Then, it’s God giving Satan permission to practically annihilate a righteous man. Hmmmmmmm
You all know the rest of the story/theology.
What was God ever thinking by putting that out there for people to talk about? That’s quite a conversation piece to draw people into. It’s not very flattering or good PR for God, I’d say. What do you say?
Hmmmmmmm
As I think about God and the Book, what he has put out there for conversations, he does not hesitate one bit to foster some dark stuff:
the near annihilation of an innocent ancient named Job;
the genoside of the people of Jericho;
the total degradation of another innocent man, beaten totally beyond recognition,and then publically disgraced by Roman crucifiction…
Do your own perusal of the ancient Scriptures and God comes up leaning a little towards the dark side.
It makes for some interesting, unorthodox, unsystematic theological conversations, I tell ya!
I have been really thinking about the ‘whirl wind’ encounter that Job had with God. I am inspired to pray that way, Lord willing without all the tragedy Job suffered. but with that kind of courage. I certainly could tap into what is going on around me to access the sadness. But what does it look like for you Dan. What does that conversation look like?
I am curious about what your prayer life is like. I have been really thinking about the ‘whirl wind’ encounter that Job had with God. I am inspired to pray that way, Lord willing without all the tragedy Job suffered. but with that kind of courage. I certainly could tap into what is going on around me to access the sadness. But what does it look like for you Dan. What does that conversation look like?
Brad, my conversation with God looks like talking to him. My relationship with Jesus is that of a best friend. I vent to him, weep, laugh, rage, sorrow, etc. My heart is open to Him in the very intimate ways. Once while praying in my house I had a neighbor knock on my door and ask me who I was talking to.
dan
“Once while praying in my house I had a neighbor knock on my door and ask me who I was talking to.” That’s funny. It reminds me of the movie “The Apostle” with Robert Duval. Did you ever see it? His neighbor always knew when he was praying, cuz he yelled a lot.
I am trying to picture this some. It seems very mystical what you are describing, which in some form I believe I have experienced. Do you actually hear God speak back to you? In my experiences where I was sure God was present, but never really heard anything. I know people who would say they have/or do and I like the idea of it… sort of. Let me say I love the potential intimacy that say Moses experienced or Job, but again it would be very scary I think. Well, scary and amazing at the same time.
I remember once when I was at Camp Pendleton and had an awesome experience like that. I was in boot camp and we were camping out in the middle of the base, and I got up to use the head (bathroom). It was a super clear night and I went to this area where there were some wood spectator bleachers like the ones at high school baseball fields, and laid down on the bottom row starting up at that incredible star-filled sky. It was amazing, and I felt like God kind of reached down from that sky and touched my chest. It was warm and reassuring that night. Kind of scary and a bit breath taking, but it was beautiful.
Just remembering that, kind of changes my mind some. As I started my questions I was more of an observer, but now remembering, I am more of a participate. I am longing for it to be more natural.
what does it look like to simply flow in that kind of conversation with The Lord? for it to be that natural? There are moments, but more times than not it is very foreign to me.
Brad
Honest Brad,
I haven’t had the type of mystical experience you describe. I wish I would! What I do feel is a sense of being together with somebody. I can’t explain it, like there is a friend there with me. Often, new thoughts come to me about life I have never had before, like an answer. But, it seems so natural. Like what you expect when you are in a conversation, but delayed.
Thanks for asking.
Appologies for not following the response chain – I’m just joining your conversation. I woke up a bit earlier than usual this morning with some thoughts that are alive for me (that I feel that I must express before I go back to sleep).
The translation of John 1 by Erasmus struck me as beautiful the first time that Dan read it to me during a Breakthrough training in December 2006. I am now not only feeling joy at reading the verses, but in living them as I am learning to communicate out of a heart of compassion with people. As I continue to practice empathy and honesty in conversation with friends, I find that the connection between us grows deeper and richer, as if the conversation is taking on a life of its own. I experience something bigger than just us two happening as our conversation moves from the left brain (mind) to the right brain (heart), that I can only describe as spiritual, and which I choose to call the heart of Christ. The heart of Christ which comes alive when two people gather to engage in a conversation of the heart and of the mind. This doesn’t always happen to me in conversation, but it has been happening more frequently as I converse with others that practice nonviolent communication (NVC) and who are in tune with their own feelings and needs.
Unfortunately, our hearts have been under attack for some time, and that’s especially true for men. And so, it is easy to have intellectual mind conversations, but much more difficult to include a balance of the heart since these are things that we are not traditionally taught or generally accepted in our culture — especially for men.
So, I am agreeing with the essence of Dan’s post, that “God the Conversation” comes to life when we come together in a spirit of compassionate connecting.
Why are you using the “format” of truth and rearranging the “Word”(s) to create confusion? I believe that you would better serve the Lord by keeping to the original text and then perhaps giving your own commentary of it. I think it is a dangerous road to twist scripture. Get your head out of the way and be led of the Spirit of God, for those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. And to those who believed gave he them “power to become” the sons of God. This “power to become” is truth that you have used yet “changed” and “clouded” with your own interpretation almost word for word.
This very important verse that you have hijacked is the most powerful foundational truth that Jesus who is the “Living Word” of God was in fact God. All things were made by him and was not anything made that was made unless he made it, showing himself as “Creator God”. His “word” was manifest and became flesh, ie = the “logo”s” became “rhema”. This is a very important key in the transformation process of us as Christians when the written “law” or “word” “logos” became a “rhema word” in our “flesh”, thus becoming our “truth” and now a part of our reality, it becomes who we are as we are “transformed” by it. No need to reinvent the “wheel” so to speak.
In the Book of John, where you have seemed to have gotten your “inspiration” from, this is crucial and foundational in the Gospel Message establishing who Jesus is, what he is, what he has, what he does, and what he gives.God is not the “author of confusion” but he is the “Author and Finisher of our faith”. Don’t forget the word of God has been purified seven times, and it’s a “Living Word”. Jesus is the “Bread of Life”, the “Living Word” in the “flesh”, so why would you tear him apart to create “another Jesus” such as is mentioned in the Book of Galatians?
When you write a sentence like “He fleshed out the words but the world did not understand’”, dude that just does not make any sense! Sorry Brother, I can see that you have an intense desire to know God, but the word “as is” is good enough, and that is your sword for dissecting truth. Remember it’s a sharp two edged sword, meaning that it cuts both ways, for removing and destroying death, sickness, bondages and anything that is not of God (including “another gospel”), and it also has the ability to empower, strengthen, protect and give the victory to the “True Believer”.
It divides between “soul and spirit”, (soul = mind + will + emotions) which can help us to discern between a “soulish” or “spiritual” message. Hopefully you can see where I am coming from, without taking offense. I don’t wish to discourage you in your journey to know God, but rather to point you in the direction that is the tried and true “Way, the Truth and the Life” when you begin to “teach” others about this awesome Gospel message that Jesus came to give. I do believe you have a message to deliver, just don’t get in the way, sometimes we have to wait on God to refine it, or rather refine it in us. God bless!
Dear Jonell,
No offense about your message. I actually view your comments to be more about you, your lack of attention to what is written, your need to fit God into cultural categories which you call Christianity that you rarely question and other issues. For example:
Could your certitude about God, the Bible and what it means be blinding you from what is offered here? At the very least it has blinded you from even recognizing that I didn’t write the verses you are commenting on, I only offered them from my “research.” I guess you missed the information in the first part of the message. This translation isn’t “my work” but the work of Erasmus translated by Dr. Clive Scott. Maybe a rereading would assist you in getting past your prejudice long enough to consider what the good Doctor and Erasmus have to say about the word “word.”
Have you ever looked at the many definitions of the word “word?” Could it be that you are offended because you fail to question your own understanding? Or where that understanding came from? I know it messes with your categories, but isn’t that just what Jesus does? Mess with our categories? At the very least you might want to consider that you may not have it all figured out and that perhaps there is something here that you are not seeing. You know the log in your eye rather than the plank in mine.
Perhaps it is your cultural Christianity that needs reform?
Always a pleasure to be of service.
Sincerely,
dan